Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed )
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@vectoradmin Btw, just out of curiosity, would you mind telling me what programming language(s) you used to build VS? It's a little off-topic, but I'm curious.
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@Nils It is C++, with some language level extensions (transpiling to C++), and of course a set of frameworks written in it.
Some specifics of this (internal) language:
- adds dynamic typing to the strong typing mechanism of C++.
- lots of runtime introspection and dynamic type handling features, based on that.
- property synthesis (no need for getter/setter), with a single line of declaration.
- container properties (again, a single line for a lot of code).
- method bindings (a.k.a connect in Qt, but much more powerful)
- property bindings, and cross-bindings (keeping two properties of different objects linked).
- hidden / dynamic "private implementation pattern" provided at language level (i.e. object memory layout does not change if properties are added / removed).
- both fixed and dynamic properties (fixed is as fast as C++, dynamic needs a lookup).
- dynamically set any property using their names (can be synthesized from String).
- dynamically call methods marked as dynamic using their method name and argument types (this allows trivial bridging to scripting languages).
- dynamic multi-methods (using dynamic method lookup).
- containers using the dynamic type system.
- some language level support for plugin extensions (mostly implemented by the core framework).
- and some other more obscure language level stuff.
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@Nils Just an FYI - if you click the three vertical dots on the right side of any post, you can go in and edit your post and add more information to it instead of making a new post for each small update
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@Boldline Hey, thanks, but I already knew this. As you may have noticed I'm already editing in new sub-topics into the mega-topic.
The reason I'm adding replies at the end of each new sub-topic is because I'm unsure if an edit causes a proper notification for @vectoradmin, so the edit doesn't go unnoticed. Do you know if this is the case?
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@Nils I don't think it sends a new alert if you edit an existing post.
I think it's great you are aggregating topics into one thread and updating the status as they get fixed. In some ways it feels confusing because there's redundancy of topics but if it's helping @vectoradmin, then that's good.
Adding posts is like being part of a group text - you get alerted for every one. That can be good for bigger things and a little annoying for smaller less important ones. So @vectoradmin is seeing the alerts, but then it also alerting everyone in the forum as well each time.
For updating @vectoradmin on the little things, what about opening one reply box and adding all the small updates you are going to be doing for a span of time and sending it once? - that way there aren't a ton of alerts for minor updates
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In some ways it feels confusing because there's redundancy of topics but if it's helping @vectoradmin, then that's good.
The only redundancy I can see is topics from other forum members not being integrated into these mega-topics, because I added accumulation notices to all of my past topics.
My intent with these mega-topics was to make it easier
- for me and others to track the state of bug fixes and feature requests
- for @vectoradmin to quickly get an oversight ( note the state notices in the titles of all the mega-topics ) of the above
- to organize and categorize bugs and feature requests
One thing that has lurked in the back of my mind for a while, though, is the possibility of enabling other members to integrate their topics as sub-topics of these mega-topics aswell. I feel like this would be another huge improvement in communication between the community and @vectoradmin.
So @vectoradmin, what do you think of the above proposal?
So @vectoradmin is seeing the alerts, but then it also alerting everyone in the forum as well each time.
You made me reconsider the replies for updates. It clutters the mega-topics. I'll remove them and rely on @vectoradmin to frequently look at these mega-topics. I mean the necessity of paying attention to them is already communicated in the titles with the parantheses anyways.
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@vectoradmin said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
@Nils Error (3) is problematic (it is not really an error):
- when cloning an object the shape effects of the original are used.
- but unlike other attributes, shape effects can be added on top of the cloned effects.
- so when the cloned object it selected, the panels show what effects are added on top of the others.
Can be removed to reduce confusion, as I've moved the sub-topic.
This comment will be deleted afterwards aswell.
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@vectoradmin said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
@Nils I will find a way to better indicate that shape effects were "inherited" from the source object.
Can be deleted to reduce confusion, as I've moved the sub-topic.
This comment will be deleted afterwards aswell.
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@Nils said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
The only redundancy I can see is topics from other forum members not being integrated into these mega-topics, because I added accumulation notices to all of my past topics.
Before you started a new system with mega-topics, there was already an existing system where users can add a topic and it could be elaborated upon by all users. This has worked well for as long as I've been in the forum. For me personally, the mega-topics intermingled with regular forum threads are too confusing and can easily lack the context of the original thread. I'm not any more in charge of how the forum works than anyone else. I'm just sharing my opinion.
I can see also see value to what you are doing - there are times topics get brought up and parts get fixed immediately but other parts get put on a list for later. It's easy to forget if those updates are still happening at some point. Sometimes a post can be missed. It can be nice to skim through a condensed version of things and see what is fixed and still waiting. I would assume it's more for the users to keep up with and maybe for @vectoradmin to reference; I'd think he has his own way of organizing things off the forum.
This type of mega-topic checklist feels like it belongs in a new forum category - so if someone wanted to quickly go through a brass tacks overview and then dial in to details as they felt so inclined, they could. Instead of wading through a ton of old conversational smaller posts, the mega-topics would be easier to find this way
This would allow the regular threads of conversation to go on in the main area and new ideas and fixes could be added as mega-topics or added to an existing mega-topic
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This has worked well for as long as I've been in the forum.
We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on this one, but the very reason for me to start this new "system" was that I though the old "system" lacked organization and didn't work very well.
No way to reliably and efficiently keep track of what's already been reported / requested and keep track of the state of this report, besides randomly searching the forum, which doesn't even guarantee finding an existing one.
Just like you said yourself:
It's easy to forget if those updates are still happening at some point. Sometimes a post can be missed.
No way to be sure @vectoradmin, as he's a human just like anyone else, didn't get to notice some of these due to stress / lack of time or whatever.
the mega-topics intermingled with regular forum threads are too confusing
As I said earlier, this could be alleviated by enabling others to integrate into mega-topics, so that you have everything neatly in one place.
can easily lack the context of the original thread
This I don't get. The context is that it's a mega-topic with specific contexts provided by its sub-topics. The mega-topic doesn't have a concrete context.
I realize I'm being a little ocd about this ( forgive me for abusing this term like many others do
), but I genuinely just want to increase the likelihood of VS improving more quickly and more reliably.
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@Nils said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
but the very reason for me to start this new "system" was that I though the old "system" lacked organization and didn't work very well.
ok that may or may not be - but it's not any of our place to just come in and change up the way things are done without running it by the group to be sure it's what they prefer, much less the one who oversees the entire thing. (If you ran your idea by the developer to change the forum prior to doing so, I apologize). Please have consideration for others who are here using the system. Not everyone breaks down the topics the way you do - not everyone is a developer.
@Nils said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
the very reason for me to start this new "system" was that I though the old "system" lacked organization and didn't work very well.
This is your opinion and you're entitled to it. VS has grown by leaps and bounds over the last couple years, so I would not agree it did not work well.
@Nils said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
No way to reliably and efficiently keep track of what's already been reported / requested and keep track of the state of this report, besides randomly searching the forum, which doesn't even guarantee finding an existing one.
Having an outline of a main topic in a specific area of the forum is a good idea -I'm not arguing with that. The fact that you saw that and wanted to do something about it are good things - my issue is that consideration of others is important. Not everyone is going to want mega-topics as the primary way of using the forum.
A big drawback to mega-topics is that they lack the back and forth conversation and evolutional process of ideas. in fact, it's these conversational threads that provide the inspiration and bug reveals that could ultimately become a mega-topic.
The main aspect of the forum therefore is to promote conversation and the virtual togetherness of putting our minds together to find solutions.For me, mega-topics are too overwhelming. I can see the value in aggregating the main topics in some way as we go along - linking relevant threads to a main topic in another section as they get discussed.
@Nils said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
I genuinely just want to increase the likelihood of VS improving more quickly and more reliably.
I don't doubt you have good motives for what you are doing - we all want to see VS continue to grow and develop and become the answer for so many people. I'm not sure what you mean by more quickly and reliably. The developer is pumping out updates at a high pace and has an overall plan in place for future updates.
@Nils said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
You made me reconsider the replies for updates. It clutters the mega-topics. I'll remove them and rely on @vectoradmin to frequently look at these mega-topics. I mean the necessity of paying attention to them is already communicated in the titles with the parantheses anyways
All I was asking was for consolidation of minor points into one post rather than multiple posts one after another - so we're all getting fewer notifications.
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@Nils Since you tested and reported so many issues (which is great!), I understand you felt the need to organize them into 'mega-topics'.
I'm not against them and I don't get notified by email if I didn't post a reply in any thread. (Oh… now I'll get notified about this
)On the other hand, I hope the developer team uses a bug tracker system, like Jira, Asana, etc.
Jira for instance lets you log bug reports, tag them by anything you want so they are easier to search ('Editing issues', for instance), also create suggestions/request entries. And last time I used it, it was free for 3-member teams.
Also, help desk software (ZenDesk, HelpScout, etc) can be linked to Jira so that when a bug is fixed or a request implemented, you just select the last fixed issues and you can send an email to each user who reported the bug or suggested something to let him know it's now fixed or implemented.
…….. .
So… assuming the developer has such a system in place (I hope so, for his sanity), the mega-topics are mostly good for us the other forum members, to track things along with you, and maybe interject some idea or… oppose some suggestion.
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@Nils I echo what @b77 said about the great ways you've contributed already to improving VS. I'm an artist and so the things I see to improve and the bugs I notice are related to what I do and think about as an artist. It sounds like you are a developer based on your posts and your background and way of thinking has added many things I would not have noticed were issues. We all contribute in our own way and together the feedback to @vectoradmin is well-rounded.
We're not always going to agree. For that matter I don't think anyone expects everyone else to agree with them 100% either lol. The fact that we are all here committing our time and energy to make VS better means we are all passionate.
You're absolutely right there could be a better way of tracking topics and organizing them. The inclusion of the code to checkmark them done is terrific.
One of the reasons I was thinking it was better to make those mega-topics a separate area was so there can be more control of what goes into them. What makes the mega-topics you did great was that it's all organized and links are made to smaller conversations and posts. That's going to turn into a mess with people posting all over the place.
I am not against the idea at all of more organized content and more efficiency for @vectoradmin to find the issues and for us to follow up on topics as we go along
What about a new area of the forum for the brass tacks approach? Topics could be pre-set ahead of time. As conversations occur in the main area, they get selectively added to the right overall topics - keeping it neat and clean
Just ideas and possibilities -
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@Boldline said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
brass tacks
Thank you for your appreciation!
Yes, people view the world through different lenses, which brings diversity but also conflicts, unfortunately. That's normal, you're right.
What about a new area of the forum for the brass tacks approach?
I think something along those lines makes sense. However, I also would like to drive back a bit my enthusiasm about everyone and everything being assimilated into a mega-topic. I tend to get overzealous with these "organizational ideas". We are not borg ( idk if you're a trekkie haha ) after all..
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@Nils I appreciate your humility as well. Yeah we're all kind of stuck here together whether we individually choose to "live long and prosper" or "use the force"
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@Boldline said in Editing issues ( mega-topic ) ( partially unfixed ):
The inclusion of the code to checkmark them done is terrific
FYI, if you didn't know that, you can include checkmarks in any text area that parses markdown ( like for topics in this forum software ) with brackets and a space or x between them, like so:
"[ ]" Fixed
"[x]" Fixed
For some reason the parser here requires you to label the checkmarks, with a space before the label.
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@Nils Don't dial back your overall enthusiasm! You have some great ideas and I agree with a large part of it. In some shape or form, it would be nice to have things collected. I wonder what options are available in the forum itself that we have not tapped into yet. When it comes to inevitable passionate disagreements on the forum we usually defer to what @vectoradmin would prefer.
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@Boldline Funny that you commented right in this instance. I was literally in this second, maybe even fraction of a second, about to decide to give up on VS ( which would be very unfortunate since I haven't come across any vector graphics software with its capabilities
), the reason being a constant discovery of new bugs. Talk about Carl Jung's synchronicities..I realize it's still rough around the edges, but at this point I can't be productive with it.
Alternatives? None.. Inkscape? No proper clone or symbol system. Illustrator? Symbol system completely sucks. None of thos even have an elaborate styling system like VS. Sigh..
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@Nils Oh wow! that's cool that we were so in sync like that. it must be a sign!
What kind of work do you do or try to do with VS? What is your definition of a lot of bugs compared to your expectation? I'm not disagreeing there are lots of bugs to be fixed. Is there another program you can use in tandem with VS for a while as these bugs get resolved?I'm sorry you're feeling so frustrated with VS - and with the state of vector programs on the whole. I can relate in some ways to that. I know Illustrator like the back of my hand, but I did not want to go to their subscription model and they have quite a few bugs still in their bloated software. I jumped over to affinity hoping it would be the savior and while it seemed promising, it lacks a lot of common use features and the timetable has slowed to years in between decent updates. The affinity forum is what led me to VS. When I first started using VS at the end of 2019, it seemed to be full of issues and was not usable for my daily professional work. What sold me at the time on sticking with it was the way VS was forward thinking and had powerful tools that when working properly, would give me greater control and ability than what I had in Illustrator or Affinity. I was most impressed by the humility and speed of the developer. I'd email him my thoughts, never expecting a reply back and instead he asked more questions and days later, my suggestions were a part of VS. This made me realize this developer was serious and dedicated and as I found out over time, a genius!
For what it's worth, I'm going to share the way I went about integrating VS into my workflow, even as it was very difficult to use early on in the process. My way is not special or rocket science - just a tried and true method that has gotten me to a much better place now.All through 2020 and 2021 I would use Illustrator for my work and then try each week to do more and more in VS instead - and when I got stuck, I'd move the design back over to Illustrator and finish it there. In the beginning I was doing 5% of my work in VS - over time that number grew and now I'm at 95%
Looking back at last summer when I needed to take a trip and needed to use VS more than usual, to today, I can see dramatic improvement to the program. By the end of 2021, I felt I was ready to make a jump and use VS for everything and rely on my old copy of Illustrator for emergencies. I admit that it's not been without it's struggles. I'm sending in numerous bugs every week by email and on the forum. Taking nothing away from @vectoradmin, VS was always powerful, but for a long time lacked what I needed it to for my professional work. it took time to explain thoroughly what I needed from VS and helping the developer understand clearly so those improvements could be effective. Some issues, I've sent him file after file after file of examples where VS did not do as it needed and while it's taken time, the improvements are monumental. Last summer I could do half my work with VS, 9 months later and I can do 90%. The answer for me was being active and consistent in sticking with VS and sending in every example I could. Build after build, those issues got resolved.
I design tshirts for a living. I remember last year when I was able to completely design a shirt graphic in VS - it was a big moment. It was a simple one color design - but it represented progress, because I was able to do it all in-house in VS. Prior to that point I was always finishing art in other programs. Sticking by VS and putting in the work had paid off!
Today I'm finalizing this softball design in VS and what I can do in VS is far greater because of the time I invested and the dedication to improvements as I dutifully send in bugs and issues.
New features aside, there's still a lot I'd like to see improved in VS as it stands right now. Because I have a system where I can still rely on another program as needed, I'm not as worried about the number of bugs and issues. I can play the long game and enjoy being part of the VS improvement process.
I forget how long you've been a part of the forum and using VS but I know that the longer you are here, the more easy it is to look back over time and see how far VS has come. One of the things that has helped me stay in the VS game has been the opportunity to help shape the future of VS. People wish their favorite program had this feature or that, and with VS, I can ensure the things that matter the most to me in a vector editing program find their way in.
We need your help to make VS more amazing than it is now. The issues you've brought up are terrific and are things others have not seen or knew to look for. Each time I see your posts or posts from others in the group sharing their ideas and the problems and potential solutions to those problems, I can feel VS getting better, one step at a time. One foot in front of the other.Give VS a year - use another trusted program to handle the rest of the tasks VS cannot do right now - focus on getting those issues in front of the developer. See if you can accomplish more each month than the previous as the bugs and issues are worked out methodically. Be selfish in what you focus on - make sure the developer hears from you on exactly the issues keeping you from being able to do the work you expect VS to handle for you. If I can do it, there's no doubt you can also see it through.
Thank you for sharing and contributing your ideas and insight - we all benefit from each other's hard work and commitment.
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@Nils Keep in mind some are just usability issues, where user input is needed — see my last post here, for instance:
