The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.
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When i draw a shape with the pencil tool and dont close the shape, it defaults to a black stroke only even if i want to draw the shape open with a colored fill.
Can this the changed somewhere to respect primarily whats in the stroke and fill boxes and result in that styling after path drawn?
I would reason the software should primarily respect whats in the fill and stroke box every time and not try to think for the user forcing a black stroke when he/she wants a filled shape created by the pencil tool or any other tool.
I would reason that a vector drawing tools primary job is to draw the actual vector shape and not concern itself with the styling which should be up to the user.
In a vector tool box the pencil tools primary unique feature is allowing the user creating these shapes by continously generating a large or small amount of points while drawing in a freehand motion as opposed to plotting points like the pen tool.
Not be a simulator of a real life pencil or think for the user or direct the user what it should have for styling.As a heavy pencil tool user in illustrator its hard to progress exploring vectorstyler as it doesnt respond as commanded in terms of styling.
Aside of that i was happy to find vectorstylers pencil tool having the smoothnes AND fidelity slider that can be set to the very lowest 0.1/1.0pt for very organic jagged edges and shapes, like legacy illustrator used to have before they rewrote the pencil tool to just one accuracy/smoothness slider which resulted in more bubbly smooth edges for a while. They fixed it ok later but it never really fully recovered to its former self.SCREEN RECORDING
Im linking to a screen recording comparing it to illustrator where i-
demonstrate illustrator respecting style choices...
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how you can work very fast and naturally as the pencil tool is only concerned just drawing a the shape while the user can just select other objects which populate the color attribute into the fill and stroke box and then your proceed to draw.
This would be the desired behaviour of the vectorstyler pencil tool.
Thanks for reading
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@ncic If you enable the 'Filled Shapes with Pencil Tool' option in Preferences > Changing Options, the shapes drawn should pick the properties of the previously selected shape.
…and Welcome to VectorStyler!
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@ncic Welcome to VectorStyler!
Should the 'Filled Shapes with Pencil Tool' be on by default in the future?
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@b77 said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
@ncic If you enable the 'Filled Shapes with Pencil Tool' option in Preferences > Changing Options, the shapes drawn should pick the properties of the previously selected shape.
Aaah, found it, JOY!!!
…and Welcome to VectorStyler!
Thank you!
@VectorStyler said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
@ncic Welcome to VectorStyler!
Thank you!
Should the 'Filled Shapes with Pencil Tool' be on by default in the future?
I would vote a yes on that enabling this option by default.
But i would consider redefining the name of the setting as the naming now only suggest that its about the "fill" aspect.
Its actually doing more than that, its retaining the most recent used appearance styling attributes, not only concerning itself specifically with the fill aspect.So for example, if you have a red stroke, no fill set to 10pt thickness with a round cap etc etc. It retains all of those styling attributes. Another way of looking at it maybe is that its retaining all styling attribues listed in the appearance panel.
Which is awesome and correct in my opinion.
So as an example more towards "Pencil Tool retains last used appearance" would seem more accurate.In Illustrator the same setting is defined the other way around.
By disabling the option "New Art Has Basic Appearance" in the appearance panel drop down.
Unfortunately this location is a bit hidden tucked away in a pallette drop down harder for users to find and its enabled by default...
...which i think is unfortunate as i encounter even experienced users that were unaware of it.After disabling "New Art Has Basic Appearance" the last used appearance attributes is used for all new objects until a different appearance has been "touched/used".
(Illustrators predefenition of what basic appearance is is 1pt black stroke with white fill. The shortcut D resets objects to this basic appearance.)
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@ncic said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
But i would consider redefining the name of the setting as the naming now only suggest that its about the "fill" aspect.
When disabled, it should still retain the stroke color and options (unless there is a bug).
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@VectorStyler said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
@ncic said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
But i would consider redefining the name of the setting as the naming now only suggest that its about the "fill" aspect.
When disabled, it should still retain the stroke color and options (unless there is a bug).
Ah, I just tried that and you are right.
Stroke attributes are preserved when disabledI have follow up comment of preserving all appearance attributes.
As appearance attributes are not only limited to strokes and fills but also lets say a other types .. live effects... for instance if youre drawing with a drop shadow effect on.
This should also be preserved. But maybe that would be an additional checkbox
Or it exists and as a newbie i just havent found it yet.
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@ncic said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
As appearance attributes are not only limited to strokes and fills but also lets say a other types .. live effects
Preserving the live effects is in the backlog for version 1.2
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If only...
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@VectorStyler said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
Should the 'Filled Shapes with Pencil Tool' be on by default in the future?
No, IMO. Let's respect the name of the tool ('Pencil') and leave the expected functionality (no fill) be the default mode of operation.
It would be much better for the 'Filled' option to be moved from Preferences to the context bar at the top (second row, before or after the 'Eraser' checkbox), immediately visible when you select the Pencil tool.
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@b77 Exactly. This is a setting best suited for the context bar. The alternative is threads like this, and confused customers.
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@b77 said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
It would be much better for the 'Filled' option to be moved from Preferences to the context bar at the top (second row, before or after the 'Eraser' checkbox), immediately visible when you select the Pencil tool.
I guess that I'm still not understanding why this needs to be in the context bar. There's already a fill and stroke setting there. The pencil tool should just be set to work with whatever is in the current fill and stroke settings. If you want the pencil to create just a stroke, make sure the fill is empty. If you want the fill only, make sure the stroke is empty.
This would be the simplest and most efficient solution. Just leave it on by default. Use the existing fill and stroke to control it instead of yet another preferences option or worse, context bar.
Is this something you would foresee wanting to change frequently? Wouldn't it be easier just to edit the fill and stroke in the color panel or in the context bar already?
Most users would expect this ability to easily use the pencil tool as a fill, as is already shown with @ncic . It was also the same expectation I shared when initially trying to use the pencil tool in VS. When you look at oth vector editing programs, this is how it's handled.This is not a setting that is going to be changed often by the user, so it makes no sense to spend valuable UI real estate adding it to the context bar.
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@Boldline Which other vector apps have this approach for the Pencil tool by default (picking the stroke and fill of the previous object by default)?
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@VectorStyler Btw, Shift-X to swap the fill with the stroke doesn't work when no object is selected.
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@b77 said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
Btw, Shift-X to swap the fill with the stroke doesn't work when no object is selected.
This is probably a regression, added it to the backlog.
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@b77 @Boldline @VectorStyler @Ingolf
On the general topic of what to expect from something named "pencil tool"
It looks like we have varying perceptions of where the name meaning lays.
In my perception the naming "pencil" doesnt describe the styling of the tool and that its exclusively drawing a stroke (after all its not simulating graphite or ink either) but a description of the characteristic of the way the user can expect to work with the tool, by which method the tool generates a curve which in the case of the pencil is in a more freehand manner as you do with a pencil. imagine youre drawing in the cmd Y outline preview where the curve generation of all tools are "naked" of how they create the curve. My understanding is that this is what is actually happening and the styling attributes is something that comes secondary on top.Ill also add that out from my reasoning one could ask, "but what about the "pen" tool then, its not descriptive of its how it works". I agree with this, its not descriptive. i would say from my perspective the naming of the "pen tool" in general in all apps is a bit misleading it should be called something more towards "plot tool" or "point tool" or something in that direction....but everybody is used to "pen tool" now which would make renaming such a tool hard now.
i can see it from @Boldline perspective that the entire setting could be perceived as redudant. why have an entire checkbox for just limiting the tool to one type of styling. the styling can straight forward be set by the user in the fill and stroke box instead of changing the entire paradigm of the tool with a checkbox.
on the topic of the locaton of the filled shapes setting
- i agree having a tool specific setting like that it in the global program preferences feels a bit misplaced.
- having it in the context bar is maybe a bit unecessary as you probably dont need that regular access to it
- the correct place to have it would be in the pencil tool settings. when you select the pencil tool and press enter you get the dialog for the pencil and brush tool settings. this feels like the home for the allow fill setting. this is where i first went to looking for it and didnt find it.
something like this
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I'll start with the TL;DR…
Is there something more simple than…
- defaulting/always reverting to no fill (just like an actual pencil) and…
- having a visible checkbox to switch to using the fill and stroke from the previous object when you don't need the default mode?
And is a checkbox with a 'Filled' label taking that much space on the context bar or adding so much visual "noise" to the UI?
@ncic Since in real life there is an object named 'pencil' that does (1) freehand drawing of lines (2) without a fill,
this creates the same expectation for the virtual tool with the same name and icon.Besides that… I doubt that a majority of users are that technical and sophisticated in their thinking
when they start with the app so that they patiently separate in their mind the freehand drawing part
from the 'no fill' part of the Pencil tool.That's why the app should keep it as simple and accessible as possible — no fill by default for the Pencil tool.
…………………………………………Regarding the black color of the stroke:
There are some tools that default to black regardless of the color of the previous object:
- the Text tool defaults to black fill for the text, and…
- the Pencil and the Path Sketch tool default to black stroke.
I guess the reason why these tools have this revert-to-basic-black behavior (since times immemorial
) is because
the situations where you need black text or black freehand strokes are more numerous than the situations
where you need them to use the color from the previous object.………………………
Boldline said:
Most users would expect this ability to easily use the pencil tool as a fill, as is already shown with @ncic .
It was also the same expectation I shared when initially trying to use the pencil tool in VS.
When you look at other vector editing programs, this is how it's handled.I doubt that most users expect this, or maybe I'm in the camp that doesn't expect this (see the 'real life pencil' explanation
above) and thinks most users think like me.
It can happen to me, it can happen to you…………………………
Boldline said:
This is not a setting that is going to be changed often by the user, so it makes no sense to spend valuable UI real estate adding it to the context bar.
ncic said:
having it in the context bar is maybe a bit unecessary as you probably dont need that regular access to itI'm honestly not sure about this not being needed often either…
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ncic said:
the correct place to have it would be in the pencil tool settings. when you select the pencil tool and press enter you get the dialog for the pencil and brush tool settings. this feels like the home for the allow fill setting. this is where i first went to looking for it and didn't find it.Placing this in the Pencil/Brush settings doesn't make it much easier to find than in Preferences, IMO.
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@b77 said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
@Boldline Which other vector apps have this approach for the Pencil tool by default (picking the stroke and fill of the previous object by default)?
I stand corrected - Illustrator needs you to switch it in the pencil tool panel. Regardless, I agree with @ncic that it makes more sense to have this setting available in the pencil settings panel rather than buried in the preferences or taking up space on the contextual bar. If I was looking to edit the pencil setting to allow for an auto-fill, I'd be looking first in the pencil settings themselves.
Personally, the ability to use the pencil to fill in space as you use it does not take away from the pencil name because you're still free-handing the overall shape.
Speaking from my own experiences and from watching the methods of many vector artists via time-lapse videos, using the pencil tool with only the fill active is actually a very common way to get more natural feel from vectors. Many artists I've seen use it to ink their comics and designs. I would also agree however that most people doing engineering layouts and precise line work would not see much use from using the fill option on the pencil.
I can see the value of what you're saying @b77 - about it having a default color and option that you don't have to worry about the color fill and stroke settings when you go to use the pencil - so I amend my view to suggest the setting be inside the pencil tool panel as @ncic suggested.
I think we need to define what kinds of settings need to be placed in the contextual by default. If it's a rarely changed setting, it makes sense to have it in the preferences, if it's changed occasionally, then in the specific tool panel and if it's something most people would alter multiple times a day, then the contextual menu makes sense.
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@Boldline Well… either way it's better than having it "hidden" in Preferences.
This makes me wonder which other Pref settings need to be moved to the tool panels.
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@b77 said in The pencil tool doesn't respect the fill and stroke color styling attributes set by the user.:
This makes me wonder which other Pref settings need to be moved to the tool panels.
This would be a good topic for a dedicated thread. What things should be in preferences, how preferences should be structured for easier navigation and what things belong in the respective tool panel preferences instead
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This is simply not how modern user interfaces are designed. No preconditions are met as in none.
It is, on the other hand, an excellent metaphor for an eight-shaped spiral.
To be continued, I guess, below.
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What other programs make this setting accessible in the contextual menu bar? Once someone adjusts the settings, (wherever it's located), how often would they be adjusting it? Is the argument being made that the reasoning behind moving it to the contextual menu bar simply about making it easy to find for a new user? I agree that hiding it in the preferences is harder to find than it should be, but moving it to the contextual menu seems like an extreme shift in the pendulum.
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