More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts

b77

@Harry Yes, I agree, a simple Prefs setting for this would be nice.

Ingolf

I think we have some functionality here that is actually well-intentioned, but doesn't fit everyone's way of using the program.

The behavior I see is that V switches between the Transform Tool and the last used tool, e.g. brush tool B. Therefore the program starts with V switching between V and V until you have used another tool. Of course, you don't see this visually.

This allows you to work with a tool, for example to brush tool, switch with V to Transform Tool and move around some objects, press V again and then be able to continue working with brush tool without using the various hotkeys to return. And without using the mouse again, if the tool doesn't have a hotkey at all... think of it as quick return-to-form-tool.

I have no idea if it's useful for me - I only discovered the context now - but definitely something that should be configurable. Before the psychiatry gets a new patient.

VectorStyler

@Igull Yes, this was introduced in the last version.

Some explanation:
Previously, if we wanted to have a sequence of action where we activate the Node tool, edit, then back to Transform with shortcuts, we needed to define a contextual shortcut override for the Node tool.
Now this is automatic for all tools, and there no need to setup contextual shortcuts.

On the other hand, the whole thing is just a single internal flag, so it would be easy to make it an option if this really impacts the workflow.

Igull

@Harry said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

Maybe it should be in preferences to turn it on and off?

Definitely - and it shouldn't be the default, imagine how anyone new to VS would find this setup ?

Neil

Igull

@b77 said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

@Igull It's been discussed here:
https://www.vectorstyler.com/forum/topic/2313/transform-shape-editor-tools/11
Q: Is there some way around this "feature", it's really becoming an issue for me ?
A: I think the only way is to edit the Keyboard Shortcuts. But make sure to also
edit the contextual shortcuts, by selecting a context in the Context drop down.
In this case, the "A" is a shortcut to the "Shape Editor" tool in the main context
and for the "Transform" tool in the "Shape Editing" context.

Yes, I remember this, but having read through, I didn't think it was to be a default ??? I've said this in a msg above today, anyone coming in to VS for the first time would think shortcuts were broken

I've reloaded my own shortcuts, but it's still doing it - I've just checked, and the rest of the contexts on my setup have no other shortcuts (for that very reason )

One of the major things to take from this is that there isn't any visual way of actually knowing what tool you are using (between transform and shape editing that is) ! I may hit the V or the A key a couple of times to ensure that I'm using that tool that I've hit the shortcut for - I really don't expect it to shift to some other tool behind my back.
IMHO, it is really bad GUI practice to do anything like this - I can imagine Jef Raskin turning in his grave as I type
However, having it as an option/preference is perfectly fine by me - lots of folks do lots of weird things on their computers

I definitely need to find away out of this - a preference is fine, but otherwise, it makes VS completely unworkable for me.

Neil

Igull

@VectorStyler said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

On the other hand, the whole thing is just a single internal flag, so it would be easy to make it an option if this really impacts the workflow.

Yes, it definitely impacts the workflow here and makes it unworkable for me - and as I said, flipping between the node tool and the transform tool is invisible to the user - there's no indication that anything has changed as the cursor icon is the same. Perhaps if the cursor icon were to change, then it might be acceptable (only might mind you ).

Neil

Boldline

@igull from what I read in the thread, it sounds like you rewired the "a" key to be the shape tool shortcut when it's naturally the node editing tool. If you were to change it to another key, this issue you've been facing would not be a problem. Personally, I don't think it should be off by default as it does not have a negative impact if the "a" and the "v" keys are left in their default shortcuts. While I don't want to see @igull struggle with it, the simpler answer might be to not edit those specific keys.
I'm in support of a preferences option to turn it off so those who still want to change those keys could do so, just not off by default

Igull

@Boldline said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

@igull from what I read in the thread, it sounds like you rewired the "a" key to be the shape tool shortcut when it's naturally the node editing tool. If you were to change it to another key, this issue you've been facing would not be a problem. Personally, I don't think it should be off by default as it does not have a negative impact if the "a" and the "v" keys are left in their default shortcuts. While I don't want to see @igull struggle with it, the simpler answer might be to not edit those specific keys.

?? No, I've always had the transform tool as V and the shape tool as A (old AI habits die hard ) - it's the toggling that is causing the issue here.

I'm in support of a preferences option to turn it off so those who still want to change those keys could do so, just not off by default

I'm thinking you might be confused ? - I have no issue with anyone having their own keys tools - that's perfectly ok (I've used the same AI keys for 30 years or so). A default standard set should be installed when installing VS for the first time. However, the toggling of keyboard shortcut keys should most definitely be switched off as default and kept as a preference for those that want it.

Toggling shortcut keys is NOT a good GUI move really. As I mentioned above, anyone moving from say AI or pretty much any vector software tool to VS would think it was broken. While it may be a wonderful method of working to lots of folks here, think of the others that might be moved to try VS, don't read any manuals (as all good engineers do ) and then find that the tools toggle about all over the place when they hit the standard shortcuts keys more than once - I can guarantee that they won't be happy.

Neil

Harry

The whole toggle commands exists in Affinity Designer already and they're on by default (besides - as far I know - there is no way to turn it off there).

Maybe problem is that, we all came to VS by different "paths" (ex. from Ilustrator, Inkscape, Affinity Designer etc.) and we should make some compromises here?

Boldline

@Igull not trying to mince words but you had said, "If I then hit 'A' to get the shape editor tool then hit A again, it toggles to the transform tool - it is DRIVING ME NUTS."
Why would you be toggling "a" to get the shape editor?

b77

Ideally, if the app would ask the user which app he's accustomed with the first time it runs,
settings like these could be toggled on or off depending on that — if coming from AD then
leave it on, if coming from AI (and maybe CDR), disable it.

But for now an option in the Preferences would be good to have.

Boldline

@b77 I understand what you're suggesting and in some ways, I agree; it could be a good onboarding method for beginners. It could also limit the effectiveness and vision for what vectorstyler could be intended. Part of what makes vectorstyler amazing is that it is both very customizable while providing a unique setup unlike the other vector editing options.

I could see a quick view list section in the manual dedicated to explaining in great detail the preferences more closely related to affinity or illustrator or Corel that guides the user through the settings to lean Vectorstyler toward what they know. This way would allow them to pick and choose and have the opportunity to branch out away from their traditional training. I'm grateful not everything in Vectorstyler is just like illustrator, or there's a lot of great features I'd have missed

b77

@Boldline said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

@b77 I understand what you're suggesting and in some ways, I agree; it could be a good onboarding method for beginners.
It could also limit the effectiveness and vision for what vectorstyler could be intended.

True, but the beginner could have a choice between "native" VS defaults and settings adapted
for AI, CDR or AD users.

Igull

@Boldline said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

@Igull not trying to mince words but you had said, "If I then hit 'A' to get the shape editor tool then hit A again, it toggles to the transform tool - it is DRIVING ME NUTS."
Why would you be toggling "a" to get the shape editor?

Because A IS the shape editor shortcut (or the AI direct selection tool if you prefer that name - I do) - if you hit A a second time, you get the transform tool (AKA the AI selection tool ). Similarly, hitting V to get the transform tool then hitting V a second time will get some other pseudo-random tool I regularly hit the shortcut keys more than once to ensure that the app has picked it up - sometimes it doesn't - if it didn't toggle, it wouldn't cause an issue
As I said, it's only the toggling that's causing the issue, so let's create a toggle switch (pun intended for electrical types ) in preferences - with it toggled off as the default

Neil

Igull

@b77 said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

Ideally, if the app would ask the user which app he's accustomed with the first time it runs,
settings like these could be toggled on or off depending on that — if coming from AD then
leave it on, if coming from AI (and maybe CDR), disable it.
But for now an option in the Preferences would be good to have.

That sounds far too sensible an idea, why didn't I think of that - nice

Best idea yet IMHO - that could apply to a number of other preferences too no doubt.

Neil

Boldline

@Igull ok I understand, my fault on the confusion here. my brain calls it the node editing tool even though the official name is shape editor. I was thinking of the rectangle/oval tool, etc.
We agree on a preferences option, but We'll have to agree to disagree on the feature being set to on by default. I think it helps a lot more people than it hinders. Just my two cents

Igull

@Boldline said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

I'm grateful not everything in Vectorstyler is just like illustrator, or there's a lot of great features I'd have missed

Yes, completely agree. I think a really decent video showing the major pros of VS is needed now. It's ok to be flailing about in the dark, but occasionally a torch is handy

Neil

Boldline

Whatever@vectorstyler decides to do works for me. Having the settings go based on a specific alternate vector editor feels less professional and the user misses out on really learning about one of the amazing features of vectorstyler, the massive ability to customize. If preferences got organized to a point where it was super easy to find all settings related to a certain topic, users would enjoy the customizing process and not missed out on features they would have liked had they used the affinity theme instead of the Corel one, etc. Also, if there was a deep dive section in the reference that fully laid out what each preference can do, that would also help people understand.

Igull

@Boldline said in More Keyboard Shortcut Conflicts:

Also, if there was a deep dive section in the reference that fully laid out what each preference can do, that would also help people understand.

Yes, that is a good idea.

Still think that perhaps some kind of Quick Start choice of settings would help folks along in the beginning.

Neil

b77

@Igull Version 1.1.070 brings a Preferences setting for this — it's in Prefs > Document View > Deactivate Tool with Shortcut.