Understanding pen tool

VectorStyler

@Jayanta-Das Yes, seems to snap to angle also, somehow did not do that in the development build.

Jayanta Das

@vectoradmin One more thing, starting node's handle should be retracted if we do not drag while creating the first node.

b77

Just to clarify a few things. Retracted Bèzier handles can mean two things:

the handle is retracted under its node but available (can be selected, with difficulty I might add).
the handle is retracted under the node but invisible (cannot be selected).

If you don’t drag when creating the first and the second node, then I agree, both Bèzier handles of the first segment need to be retracted and invisible. As they currently are.

If just the 1st node is created without dragging and you drag when creating the 2nd node, the app does the right thing in making both handles of this first segment visible (not retracted) and selectable.

Any retracted but visible handle is bad practice — it means only one handle (the other) needs to be used to change the curvature of the segment. And it’s difficult to select and drag the retracted handle from under its node.

………………………
In conclusion:

If the segment is straight, both Bèzier handles need to be retracted under their nodes and invisible (unselectable). They are.

If the segment is curved, both Bèzier handles need to be visible and selectable, not just one. They are.

Jayanta Das

@b77 Thanks for sharing your thought. Here we have three options:

Simply clicking to create straight line.
Simple click the first node but drag while creating the second node.
dragging both the first and second node.
As far as I know simple click without dragging means cusp node and dragging means it creates handle. So if I create a shape by simply clicking the first node and dragging the second, that means handle of the first node should not be created only handle of the second handle be created.
If want to have the handles of both the nodes then I will drag while creating the first and the second nodes.
This way we have more freedom of creating shapes.
And this is what we get in AI, AD and I think other programs too.

Example AI
Example AD

b77

@Jayanta-Das Not only AI and AD, but also CDR hasn't fixed this… they still draw the first segment with one handle. Sloppy and… path-etic!

VS can do better than that.

But anyway, giving examples of other apps that create the first segment like this is not a valid argument in itself.

Explaining why is that better can help. Even with the videos, I might have missed something, some specific advantage?…

As I see it now, because VS places both handles over a curved segment (with no additional click/effort from the user), you can easily bend the segment in an S shape if needed, which you can't do when one of the handles is retracted (unless you use a separate tool to "unstick" the retracted handle).

I think this approach gives you more freedom — VS creates easier-to-edit segments with the same number of clicks.

(Also: if you export such paths to specialized apps like a font design app you need to fix them afterwards (in font vectors no two points should share the same coordinates)).

Jayanta Das

@b77 said in Understanding pen tool:

Explaining why is that better can help. Even with the videos, I might have missed something, some specific advantage?…

As I have already explain We can have first node with or without handle thats the advantage. In AI or AD we can trace anything with pen tool with minimal adjustment of the handle after closing but in VS it is very much sure we have to adjust the handle of first node or second.

Jayanta Das

@b77 said in Understanding pen tool:

Not only AI and AD, but also CDR hasn't fixed this… they still draw the first segment with one handle. Sloppy and… path-etic!

I think you haven't use all the features of pen tool and its modifier key in AI or AD can't say about CDR. They doesn't only draw first segment with one handle, can create two handle also.

Jayanta Das

@b77 said in Understanding pen tool:

But anyway, giving examples of other apps that create the first segment like this is not a valid argument in itself.

No offence but this is discussion only for more featured and bug free VS.

b77

@Jayanta-Das Is the first segment when tracing something so far off that you need to use both handles to correct it?
And you'd rather have just one handle for that, because it's easier to fix the curvature that way?

OK, then if we apply the same rule, the other segments should also have one of the handles retracted because they are easier to edit with a single handle?

………………………………

I still have AI CS5 here on a Sierra partition and I know that when you click-and-drag the first node (when starting a new path with the Pen tool), AI will indeed create a segment that has both handles visible (none is retracted).

But you asked for the handle of the first node to be retracted when simply clicking (without dragging) to create the first node.

That's what I replied to and that's what I disagree with. This creates segments that are more difficult to edit, and if you happen to export those paths to another app with more strict requirements you need to fix them by hand or use scripts for that.

(I hoped AI changed this in more recent releases, but from your video it looks like they didn't).

b77

@Jayanta-Das said in Understanding pen tool:

In AI or AD we can trace anything with pen tool with minimal adjustment of the handle after closing but in VS it is very much sure we have to adjust the handle of first node or second.

Maybe you can do a quick video comparison between AI and VS demonstrating this.

Jayanta Das

@b77 said in Understanding pen tool:

Maybe you can do a quick video comparison between AI and VS demonstrating this.

Ok I will make a comparison video.

Jayanta Das

@b77 Below are the recordings of tracing with both AD and VS. You can clearly see that I can trace without even adjusting node after, but in VS I have to adjust the handle. The question is not about if VS can't do(VS is more featured and powerful than AD), the question is about how effortlessly you do.

Tracing with AD
Tracing with VS

And I don't think there is any problem in having both the option of having first node drag and click to have handle place according to the like of user.

encart

@Jayanta-Das I don't know since when, but the same option is available in VS
https://recordit.co/qYJsfbyzB9

Edit: Sorry, I got it wrong;)

Jayanta Das

@encart I know that. Thats what we were discussing about. The starting node click and drag function. Dragging will place the handle were user want and VS do that very well.

b77

@encart It's indeed available in VS if you click-and-drag when creating the first node.

Jayanta suggested VS should behave the same way it does in AD (retracting the handle) if you only click, without dragging, when creating the first node.

Sorry @Jayanta-Das, I still don't see any advantage except that it's indeed easier to just click instead of click-and-drag for one single node, the first one.

(I asked for a comparison video thinking I missed some advantage of this related to closing the path, but it looks like I didn't).

Let's agree to disagree on this one.

Jayanta Das

@b77 said in Understanding pen tool:

OK, then if we apply the same rule, the other segments should also have one of the handles retracted because they are easier to edit with a single handle?

Hope it helps you understand Video

b77

@Jayanta-Das I will continue this discussion via private message.

Jayanta Das

@vectoradmin Here is a video of pen tool drawing two curve.
First Curve: First node is simple click and second node is drag
Second Curve: First node is drag and second node is click
Should not those be same(mirror)?. If I create this in other program the two curve are same(mirror). As I already discussed about first node created in VS with pen tool in this thread. What would you say about this? I would really want to know.